[13:01:23:05 – 13:01:26:14]
Speaker 1
I’m not quieting here. It’s actually bad for you.
[13:01:26:14 – 13:01:34:01]
Speaker 2
You put it on the fan picking up on Mike’s. If we do a stockpile we will just put it on in-between.
[13:01:36:13 – 13:01:37:02]
Speaker 2
OK.
[13:01:39:16 – 13:01:40:21]
Speaker 2
I will stop.
[13:01:43:00 – 13:01:43:19]
(Inaudible)
[13:01:48:17 – 13:01:49:03]
Speaker 1
Where’s your thing?
[13:01:49:03 – 13:01:49:18]
Speaker 3
Yeah.
[13:01:49:18 – 13:02:02:21]
Speaker 2
We must get an official clap. I’ll make sure it’s up on the next one. First Principles Podcast, episode one. Wait, let me do that again. I want to say season one, episode one, because we can have one in season.
[13:02:02:21 – 13:02:04:02]
(Laughter)
[13:02:05:22 – 13:02:09:21]
Speaker 2
First Principles Podcast, season one, episode one.
[13:02:09:21 – 13:02:11:20]
(Clap)
[13:02:11:20 – 13:02:13:19]
Speaker 1
We have it here. Right.
[13:02:15:12 – 13:02:22:14]
Speaker 1
Thank you for being here. Can I just acknowledge the uncomfortable setting?
[13:02:24:02 – 13:02:36:21]
Speaker 1
I’ve met you one on one a few times. I’ve met you one on one three times. I’ve met you many times one on one. And you guys haven’t even met each other before, so maybe I can start with you, Trish.
[13:02:39:14 – 13:02:45:11]
Speaker 1
I think the reason I invited you is because when we have our conversations, it feels like we really quickly go down to the first principles.
[13:02:47:02 – 13:02:48:04]
Speaker 1
And that’s where the stuff moves.
[13:02:49:05 – 13:02:56:21]
Speaker 1
So maybe on that note, who are you? And tell Ridwan and Karine who you are and what your background is and so on.
[13:02:56:21 – 13:03:01:00]
Speaker 4
Lovely. So I’ve known Lochner three, four, five months.
[13:03:02:14 – 13:03:10:12]
Speaker 4
Started at TCG in March last year. It’s actually only coming up for a year. And one of the first things we did was Salesforce CRM implementation.
[13:03:11:13 – 13:03:41:06]
Speaker 4
Long journey, which I’m sure we’re going to get to. But first off, connected with Lochner to listen. I don’t know what I’m in for. Let’s have some copies. And I’m now chief strategy and growth at KoreaGAR. Phenomenal business. Proudly South African. Do a little plan. That’s all of our dramas out there. But yeah, I’m really looking forward to connecting with you guys on lessons loads and starting to build a community that I know you very desperately want to start engaging with and growing.
[13:03:41:06 – 13:03:55:01]
Speaker 1
Yeah. And the cool thing what I like about it is there’s businesses in South Africa who’s going to be hopefully listening to this who can relate with the good guy. And with not international content and these international stories that we hear all the time.
[13:03:56:14 – 13:03:59:16]
Speaker 1
Ridwan, I remember I think I met you the first time
[13:04:01:19 – 13:04:07:00]
Speaker 1
at the Life Health offices in that big fancy boardroom.
[13:04:09:03 – 13:04:10:14]
Speaker 1
Different setting to this.
[13:04:11:18 – 13:04:20:08]
Speaker 1
And I remember the first time we started chatting one on one, you really have a love for the patient.
[13:04:21:09 – 13:04:30:09]
Speaker 1
Because a lot of people speak about they want to do A, B, and C. But you always stood out as– but what about this patient journey? What about this patient? What other patient are going to experience this?
[13:04:31:14 – 13:04:46:05]
Speaker 1
So these system thinking conversations don’t always end up there. That’s what I liked about chats with you. And then we almost kind of became work friends. And then we have a coffee every now and then, I think, when we emotionally need it.
[13:04:47:10 – 13:04:48:03]
(Laughter)
[13:04:48:03 – 13:04:54:12]
Speaker 1
And that’s where we are. So maybe for Trish and for Karine, just your background and who you are.
[13:04:54:12 – 13:06:23:06]
Speaker 5
Yeah, thanks. I guess similar to you, Trish, we kind of crossed paths when we did a big installation for Salesforce. I mean, I’ve been in the health care for 25 years. But I’ve really had the same passion and the same focus for all of that time, which is for different employees. And so I guess when I met Locke, I was fairly clear about what I needed in terms of what we were doing in the health care space. And it needed to be patient-centric. It needed to be in the health care space, which is something that revolved around a patient and were able to manage their end-to-end journey. And I think that’s why there was a great front between what I guess historically is used in all other industries. Actually, never in the health care space. Because actually, the patient never seems to be the center of the equation, which is very baffling. But kind of, it’s just reality. So I have a deep passion for the health care space. But also importantly, just to kind of push the health care space to a point where actually for the patient, it’s about the outcome and not about the things that happen to the patient that seems to be the default in the industry. And I guess technology and being able to say, when you cut through all of that, how you make a patient at the center of that, unfortunately, you can’t do it without choosing the right enabling technology.
[13:06:23:06 – 13:06:55:13]
Speaker 1
Yeah. And I think for both of you, before I get to Karine, what stood out for me in our conversations, and you weren’t just called what the system’s going to be like. You incorporated– well, you brought me into the real reality of your life with the people and the emotions and the drama and all those little parts that really affect your intentions of what you want to get done. So Karine knows me probably better than anybody. Basically, I always joke and says she’s my Tuesday wife.
[13:06:55:13 – 13:06:56:02]
Speaker 4
Oh, wow.
[13:06:56:02 – 13:07:08:11]
Speaker 1
And then I’ve got the rest of the week, my wife. And my wife always jokes. She always says, well, she doesn’t joke. So she’s quite serious. And she says, just tell Karine to explain this to you, and then you’ll believe it.
[13:07:10:07 – 13:07:27:16]
Speaker 1
So the reason I brought in Karine is because I’ve worked a part of the amazing part. And I think what I really enjoy about you is when you listen to conversations, and when you listen to me, you pick up small little things that other people don’t pick up, because she really listens.
[13:07:28:20 – 13:07:40:07]
Speaker 1
And I think I’m excited about the questions you might be asking, all the stuff you might be bringing to the table. So maybe just for Ridwan and Trish, your background and who you are.
[13:07:41:12 – 13:07:41:16]
Speaker 6
Thanks.
[13:07:43:03 – 13:07:44:17]
Speaker 6
I am a psychologist.
[13:07:48:01 – 13:08:13:09]
Speaker 6
I’m excited to year and learn, because I think that what you guys do is so far away from what I do every day. But I think what excited me when Lochner spoke about the podcast and what convinced me to come is I think there’s a lot of people that want to try stuff, do stuff, make a difference. It’s something I year often is I just want to make a difference.
[13:08:14:12 – 13:08:20:05]
Speaker 6
But then they get swallowed up by politics or systems or performance demands.
[13:08:22:01 – 13:08:32:11]
Speaker 6
So I’m excited about what you said earlier, about just being authentic and really hearing what it is that you guys experience, what’s the things you tell your partner when you go home tonight,
[13:08:34:07 – 13:08:39:02]
Speaker 6
and what you plan. So I’m excited to learn. Thanks for inviting me. Awesome. Thank you.
[13:08:39:02 – 13:08:58:02]
Speaker 1
So in short, guys, I think we spoke about this earlier. What I want to try and stick to in this– oh, you don’t have to, but we can try and stick to this theme is it feels like we’re in a crossing point in South– a reflection point, inflection point in South Africa. And I think it’s important to have a South African conversation.
[13:08:59:08 – 13:09:12:02]
Speaker 1
I’m a massive passion and I love our country. And I know each of you do as well. And I think that’s another reason why you year. There’s a lot of people I would have liked to speak to, but I don’t share that same passion for the country and its people.
[13:09:13:05 – 13:09:24:09]
Speaker 1
And what I’m seeing, I think this conversation is important, is there’s people out there making decisions as we speak, expensive decisions, to try and build their businesses,
[13:09:27:14 – 13:09:45:22]
Speaker 1
not knowing that they’re possibly going down a path that you’ve walked down before that might be the wrong path or expensive path. And the idea here is to share some of those war stories, some of the stuff we’ve learned. Yours is going to be probably more technical as an architect type thinking, but also the emotional people side.
[13:09:46:22 – 13:09:48:12]
Speaker 1
Treats yours as much more revenue.
[13:09:49:15 – 13:09:57:19]
Speaker 1
You’re a driver of performance and bigger operational parts of the business. So if I can maybe start with that,
[13:10:00:11 – 13:10:08:04]
Speaker 1
there’s a tension out there that I can feel in every conversation I have. And I think that’s the main thing that I think is important. I think that there’s a tension in the business between being patient,
[13:10:10:00 – 13:10:18:01]
Speaker 1
doing the right things when building these systems and your businesses, and this panic of I need to beat the competition and get to this AI,
[13:10:19:05 – 13:10:26:11]
Speaker 1
whatever. I don’t even know what the endpoint of that is. I don’t know. I think anybody knows what the endpoint of that is. But there’s people chasing that thing,
[13:10:31:19 – 13:10:50:19]
Speaker 1
I first need to get this right for my customers and for my business. So you’ve gone through that journey in a quite mature market, which I think the health space, the health care space is quite interesting, because they’ve had the funds and the capital for years to invest in these big systems and try and get to this stuff. Where are you in this process?
[13:10:51:20 – 13:10:52:07]
(Inaudible)
[13:10:52:07 – 13:11:19:20]
Speaker 5
I mean, I think let me first start off by saying that I think the customers for any tech implementation as you know, Lachlan, is very, very expensive. Full stop. It doesn’t matter who the seller is. It doesn’t matter how much money there is. And I think that there’s always been a thing that struck me. In the health care that we relate to technology, very, very likely. I think that there’s always been the systems that get the providers paid. Those are good.
[13:11:21:01 – 13:11:41:08]
Speaker 5
The systems that manage the system have been very absolute. And I think for me, a lot of that has been because there’s never been an impetus to do it. Because ironically, in your introduction, like in the health care, the revenue argument doesn’t align with the outcome argument.
[13:11:42:08 – 13:12:55:17]
Speaker 5
Making patients better and giving them better outcomes doesn’t necessarily mean for the provider in the current paradigm that there is more revenue in the short term. And so we’ve always had this challenge in moving the industry forward is that how do you move it forward with the facts and the evidence and whatever that this is actually where the industry needs to be, while understanding that there’s a whole bunch of other incentives at play, right? So in my sense is that technology has always been difficult to adopt in the management of health care because of that. And so my job has always been to understand should you have to lead with evidence, you have to lead with competence, you have to lead with excellence, but that is almost always insufficient. It’s like side, you know, it’s almost like, if you’re not excellent, if you’re not clear, if you don’t have the substance, you don’t even begin to play the game. There’s all the emotive stuff, right? And I guess it’s the things about what that means to the people whose incentives are you affecting, you know what I mean? How’s the doctor getting paid? How’s the director of a lesser companies
[13:12:57:02 – 13:13:00:11]
Speaker 5
bonuses for that idea? How do people feel, right?
[13:13:00:11 – 13:13:00:17]
Speaker 3
Yes.
[13:13:00:17 – 13:13:39:14]
Speaker 5
It’s about adoption, like you’re gonna change how a thousand people interact and work with technology now. So what I found is that this journey is one of, I put the rationale and the evidence, but actually all of the management is that the emotional level. It’s about the humans, it’s about that layer of understanding how you navigate that. And then having this blind optimism that you know you’re doing the right thing and that it’s a step towards where you’re wanting to go. I’ve always felt like in the outcome, we’re fighting for the patient while everybody else is fighting to essentially
[13:13:40:23 – 13:13:43:13]
Speaker 5
keep the status quo going as long as possible.
[13:13:43:13 – 13:13:44:13]
Speaker 1
Yeah, it’s that danger.
[13:13:44:13 – 13:13:45:13]
Speaker 3
It’s that danger.
[13:13:46:15 – 13:15:05:14]
Speaker 5
Let’s mock this thing until we got there anymore and then we’ll change, right? And I think one of the things I’ve learned later in my career is that, how do you put the end on the table? Because that’s the only way you go forward. And the end is in that emotional block, right? Which is, hey, we’re preserving your incomes, we’re preserving your incentives and stuff, but we’re also making the system better. And I think that only embracing that end, that paradox of, we can actually do good and do well. And that’s always been the thing that the tension. And unfortunately, technology is an expensive purchase in pursuit of that aim. And that’s how we met. Like for me, it’s never about the technology. It’s like people think, hey, we’re gonna put this thing, why are we doing that thing? What is it going to do? How does it fit in? Do we understand the question that we’re trying to solve for? I think that’s always been the thing. So is that the tension of justifying the technology is this third, fourth order thing? But actually it’s all the work prior to that, right? Well, I would imagine in other industries, it’s a little bit more primary, right? It’s like, hey, this thing is gonna change X and it’s going Y revenue. And so in the after you’ve never had that
[13:15:05:14 – 13:15:06:19]
Speaker 3
ability.
[13:15:08:11 – 13:15:19:03]
Speaker 6
I wanna hear if I understand you right. Like you’re almost saying these changes coming, but because of the resistance to change, you have to take it slower.
[13:15:20:13 – 13:15:35:02]
Speaker 6
So you almost need to find a way to get the providers, the patients to trust you that the change will still be in their best interest. Absolutely. But how do you do that? I don’t know if that’s the case.
[13:15:35:02 – 13:15:48:15]
Speaker 5
I founded a company 10 years ago and I left it about six years ago. And as I was leaving the company, I went to Gigali one day and they invited me to talk at a conference
[13:15:49:22 – 13:17:08:22]
Speaker 5
and this guy stood up and was speaking about education. It was the most central moment in my professional career. He stood up and he said, you know, we wanted to change education and we had these great ideas and we came in with these plans and nobody was caring about why, what we wanted to change. Then we went back and we said, actually, let’s understand the existing educational system and do it as best as we can. And he said, when we did the existing system excellently, it gave us the license to change the system. And that lesson never left me. So when I tackle every problem and the way my portfolios were always constructed is that the first thing I always made sure is that what runs the business, what’s important to them now, or the current system actually dictates, I do the exception. In fact, better than I do everything else. And then the change is easier because then you’re almost buying a ticket to, hey, okay, it’s almost thing about the motive layer. Hey, actually, is caring or they’re doing what a business needs. Oh, okay, and they wanna do this other thing, cool. It’s fine. And so you buy the emotional space by actually being excellent at what the current thing is.
[13:17:08:22 – 13:17:10:02]
Speaker 1
Interesting point.
[13:17:10:02 – 13:17:17:22]
Speaker 5
It’s worth it all. And once you do that, I’ve bought myself years of political runway because what you do is that you demonstrate that.
[13:17:17:22 – 13:17:21:14]
Speaker 6
It’s consistency and competency that’s like–
[13:17:21:14 – 13:17:28:05]
Speaker 5
And I’m respecting where we’re at at the moment. I’m not saying, hey, shh, there’s a new world.
[13:17:28:05 – 13:17:36:02]
Speaker 1
You see there’s a lot, man. Especially with new brooms coming into a company. Like just out of principle, like scratch. And then that’s good.
[13:17:36:02 – 13:17:39:14]
Speaker 5
And then somebody that comes into a new role is my pet peeve, sorry.
[13:17:39:14 – 13:17:40:01]
(Laughing)
[13:17:40:01 – 13:17:45:03]
Speaker 5
They come in and they say, everything this company’s been doing is shit and we’re gonna do it this way. They’re gonna fail.
[13:17:45:03 – 13:17:45:15]
Speaker 3
Yes.
[13:17:45:15 – 13:17:49:16]
Speaker 5
It’s fascinating. You have a thousand other people that have been doing it that way.
[13:17:49:16 – 13:17:59:05]
Speaker 6
But we spoke about it earlier this morning in saying that kind of predictability, consistency, it’s things that calm the nervous system.
[13:18:00:11 – 13:18:04:02]
Speaker 6
And that’s the foundation of safety and trust. Yes.
[13:18:05:18 – 13:18:06:10]
Speaker 6
I like what you’re saying.
[13:18:07:10 – 13:18:08:04]
Speaker 1
Your opinion on that?
[13:18:09:22 – 13:18:37:04]
Speaker 4
So as I’m listening, right, I know there’s statements out there that like takes 20% of the transformation and the other 80% is the human piece. But what I love what you’re saying now, right, if that tech piece is not there, it’s not done well, you’re not out of the gates, right? And I think that’s what I’ve seen is you’ve really gotta make sure that you do the basics well and you get that credibility over the line. You don’t have the credibility.
[13:18:39:08 – 13:18:40:14]
Speaker 4
Lachlan, you and I have had chats,
[13:18:41:17 – 13:18:47:05]
Speaker 4
transformation is hard, okay? And I spent a lot of time reflecting on why is it hard?
[13:18:48:12 – 13:19:09:17]
Speaker 4
By its nature, you’re changing the definition of good. So yesterday I did something really well and I was good at that. And I got paid for it and that was good. Now you’re saying to me, good changed. If you think in your own life, when somebody says the definition of good just changed, you were maybe running six minutes, okay? Now someone says, try five minutes 30.
[13:19:11:02 – 13:19:46:08]
Speaker 4
It’s not easy, right? So I know you’re also asking me, what does the transformation need to do? What is it? It’s how do you hold that line? Did you only get the permission to hold the line if you’re doing the basics well, right? I can’t ask you to change the definition of good if I’m the coach and I’m not even arriving to practice on time. So it’s a dance all the time between credibility and I like your word, predictability. I actually wanna come back to that, but how do we get that credibility that earns you the right to change the definition of good?
[13:19:47:12 – 13:19:52:09]
Speaker 4
And I think that’s the dance, right? And for me, it’s a bit of a dance.
[13:19:54:04 – 13:19:55:14]
Speaker 1
But isn’t that the problem at the moment?
[13:19:57:12 – 13:19:58:22]
Speaker 1
Especially with this AI hype.
[13:19:58:22 – 13:19:59:08]
Speaker 6
Yeah.
[13:19:59:08 – 13:20:10:04]
Speaker 1
That I don’t know if you experienced it yourself when you engage with customers or other businesses. It feels like everybody’s not trying to shoot to this.
[13:20:11:13 – 13:20:16:20]
Speaker 1
They’ve got an app now or a WhatsApp or you can chat with this AI, but they don’t have your number right.
[13:20:16:20 – 13:20:17:02]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[13:20:18:16 – 13:20:39:04]
Speaker 1
Or my package is not delivered. You’ve got this amazing piece of tech, but my package is two days late or whatever the case might be. How do you feel about maybe redoing, going back to the basics? I think that’s a big point for me when I speak to our customers a lot. It’s like, okay, cool, you wanna do this and you wanna do that, but what about this foundation?
[13:20:40:08 – 13:20:41:23]
Speaker 1
The technicalities that you’re going bullshit.
[13:20:41:23 – 13:21:15:18]
Speaker 5
One of my favorite books in the world is “The Chuckers Guide to the Galaxy.” I just read it now, but all it is, I had lots of time and lots of thinking space. I love that book only because of your question is that they go off and they create this monster machine and it churns for thousands, hundreds of years to come up with a question. And it pops up and it says, “42.” Then everybody says, “What’s the question?” And that’s the problem. If you’re the first principles,
[13:21:16:21 – 13:21:22:05]
Speaker 5
nobody wants to take the time to define what the question is, I almost said that so time.
[13:21:22:05 – 13:21:23:10]
(Laughing)
[13:21:24:19 – 13:21:57:16]
Speaker 5
The first one says, “Why are you trying to achieve? What are you trying to do here? What’s the question?” You know, I think that one of the things I’ve seen through my career is that there are a lot of people that do and they’re doing them all of what they think is good. Very few people actually think and want to ask the questions, right? And the reality is that first principles dictates that you always have to understand what question you’re answering. This is amazing, a lost interview of Steve Jobs. I don’t even watch a lot of him, but there’s one.
[13:21:58:21 – 13:22:01:02]
Speaker 5
They asked him, he was about 20.
[13:22:02:08 – 13:22:08:08]
Speaker 5
And if you ask him, “Steve, what made you think you can run a multi-million dollar company?”
[13:22:08:08 – 13:22:08:13]
Speaker 3
Yeah.
[13:22:08:13 – 13:22:18:15]
Speaker 5
He looks at the guy and he’s characteristic, he used to think through all, what does this guy ask me? And he says, “It’s very simple, I actually can think. I question everything.”
[13:22:18:15 – 13:22:19:05]
Speaker 3
Yeah.
[13:22:19:05 – 13:22:34:11]
Speaker 5
“When I see something in front of me, I question why are we doing that? Why do we need a CRM? What does it do? How’s it gonna fit?” You know, and the reality is that you see so many times that tech is being adopted because people think tech is good.
[13:22:34:11 – 13:22:35:18]
Speaker 1
So joins us, yeah.
[13:22:35:18 – 13:22:57:18]
Speaker 5
But the people that are implementing it, you’re not asking questions, you don’t know what, I’ve seen this, I mean, I’ve had a thousand sessions internally to say, “Guys, what is it that we want this thing to do?” Be clear, once you know what you can do, then you know how to implement it properly, and then you know how to actually monitor this thing. But otherwise, it’s just a futile exercise, right?
[13:22:57:18 – 13:23:02:23]
Speaker 1
And that’s one part of it, because even if you get to that point, staying on that…
[13:23:02:23 – 13:23:07:10]
Speaker 5
If you don’t know the why, and you know what question you’re asking, how do you continue
[13:23:07:10 – 13:23:24:02]
Speaker 1
that journey? Because what’s happening, this journey is never a three month journey, it’s a six month, 12 month, two years, three years plus journey. And the off way through it, there’s a CRI swap, or a new guy, and he’s got AI, or a two, and all of a sudden, there’s drift away from that original…
[13:23:25:05 – 13:23:27:15]
Speaker 1
We like the word executive intent.
[13:23:29:03 – 13:23:31:16]
Speaker 1
And I think it’s worth going back to that.
[13:23:33:01 – 13:23:34:15]
Speaker 1
I wanted to ask you, Trish,
[13:23:35:22 – 13:23:38:04]
Speaker 1
the dynamic of working with people,
[13:23:39:21 – 13:23:43:04]
Speaker 1
because the CEO, the people that we all work with, even in your previous jobs,
[13:23:44:13 – 13:24:05:00]
Speaker 1
that tension between what they want, and what you need, know that needs to be done. Because you know what needs to be done, but to share all this, the new equity partners, whatever, how do you manage that? Because there’s not a lot of people who’s got the balls to toe the line, all right? Stay there.
[13:24:05:00 – 13:24:06:03]
Speaker 4
Lochna,
[13:24:07:06 – 13:24:12:15]
Speaker 4
I’ve thought a lot about how do these dynamics play out, and what is the role?
[13:24:14:12 – 13:24:24:13]
Speaker 4
Firstly, I think you’ve got to recognize your own ego. So there are times, I know people always say, politics kills these things, and what happens if the politics are bad? Do I leave if there’s a change in the COO?
[13:24:25:14 – 13:25:23:08]
Speaker 4
And in thinking about today, and what would I want if I was gonna mentor people, what was I gonna say, right? For me, be aware of who you are, and your ego that you bring to the table, right? Because that’s problem number one. The second thing is, you are not expected to do this alone. So even your question to me is, how do I have the balls? It isn’t that, right? If we are aligned on why are we doing this as a business, then I mean, you’ve seen that at Coriaga, we had a CRO transition, and it’s almost been seamless, almost. Because I’ve been very deliberate about saying, it’s not me, this is a team thing, and how do I do this? The minute I feel like I’m isolated on my own, it’s almost a check for myself that says, I’m probably dropping the ball somewhere, because this shouldn’t feel like I’m leading this thing. I almost feel like my job is a little bit of a therapist, right, just to say,
[13:25:24:17 – 13:26:21:08]
Speaker 4
I was thinking about it, what’s my aha moment? When do I step in, and when do I put on my high heels, and go, this is my moment, right? Funny enough, it’s when things get hard. Because now I’ve gotta look at this and go, what just happened? Is it someone’s ego at play? Did we drop the ball in credibility? Are the teams overwhelmed? And so my moment is to diagnose, when did we go out of alignment? Do we need to stop? And it’s important for us all to go transformation’s hard. We’re stepping up. There are gonna need to be times when you pause, and you go, okay, you know what? We need to recognize the moments. We’re halfway in, right? How do we do those? So I think, how do we make sure that this is a collective? How do we recognize that going in, it’s gonna be hard? And there are gonna need to be moments where we go, you know, if we’re going up the mountain today, we’re all gonna just check in with each other, or we still live the right track. So mine is all to be that therapist.
[13:26:21:08 – 13:26:38:03]
Speaker 6
Help me understand it, I’ve never been in corporate, right? So how do you know this is my ego? Or how do you figure out, okay, what is, is the team even on the same page? Or do you just think they’re on the same page? Like how do you practically do that?
[13:26:38:03 – 13:26:44:09]
Speaker 4
You’re gonna know this better than me, right? But somewhere in my career, someone taught me the word change span.
[13:26:44:09 – 13:26:45:12]
Speaker 3
Okay.
[13:26:45:12 – 13:27:46:16]
Speaker 4
And this is, how do you go from people that are working at the bottom end of a call center, right the way up to the COO. So if you have to start and follow this conversation up, to go, you know, Mary, you’re answering the phone, when things don’t go, who do you talk to? And they’re gonna say, I talk to Susan. Susan, and you map out what they call the informal network in your business. Because there’s what you think is the formal one, but we all know it actually gets done through the informal one, right? So kind of starting at Koeger, one of my first things was just to try and see who’s that informal network. And funny enough, it’s not who you think it is. So invariably, there’s players that sit on the sideline, but that’s the flow of information. So that’s where I went, right? So when things start to look like, and you can pick it up, things aren’t being signed on time, deliverables are being, are late, someone sits in front of a screen and goes, that’s not what I asked for. And they lose their temper and they storm out the room, right?
[13:27:47:17 – 13:28:13:00]
Speaker 4
Those moments, that’s when you go to that informal one. And it’s a cup of coffee. And that’s why these conversations that I have with Lachna are so valuable, right? Because now I’m gonna sit and go, Lachna, what did you hear? And he will tell me, he sat on the board during the one day and overheard a conversation with somebody. And he said, that conversation I overheard should never have happened. So it’s that informal way that I’ve found to me
[13:28:13:00 – 13:28:15:01]
Speaker 1
The old smokers balcony.
[13:28:15:01 – 13:28:20:07]
Speaker 4
It’s the old smokers balcony, right? Exactly, so how do you find those?
[13:28:20:07 – 13:28:24:02]
Speaker 6
So you can truly know what is happening in the company culture.
[13:28:24:02 – 13:29:16:08]
Speaker 4
And then, and listen, I mean, there’s techniques for these things, right? When you see a whole lot of frustration happening, invariably tells you there’s a plan that’s missing. If you see people are resistant, invariably tells you the incentives are not aligned. He’s being incentivized on this, she’s being incentivized on this. So there are techniques in the toolbox and maybe that’s part of speaker notes, right? Is what are some of these techniques that are publicly available? I think the difference to when I started my career, to where we’re at now, there are so many tools out there, like the Amazon toolboxes are amazing. Like there are toolboxes coming out of all over. How do we make those available to the generation that’s coming into the workforce now to say, when you see these things? So it’s not, I know you’re asking me like it’s, they sound like it’s witchcraft. No, actually some of this is just old fashioned listening.
[13:29:16:08 – 13:29:17:02]
Speaker 6
And humility.
[13:29:17:02 – 13:29:18:02]
Speaker 4
And humility.
[13:29:18:02 – 13:29:22:15]
Speaker 1
And I think that’s an important word. Because what you spoke about earlier is your own ego.
[13:29:22:15 – 13:29:23:07]
Speaker 2
Yeah.
[13:29:23:07 – 13:29:31:23]
Speaker 1
To be in the right way, that’s pride. How do I put that in my pocket? Am I willing to do that? Yeah.
[13:29:33:21 – 13:29:39:23]
Speaker 1
Maybe for you, because I mean, in your world, before I asked that question, is there anything you wanted to add on today? Yeah, yeah.
[13:29:39:23 – 13:30:25:10]
Speaker 5
I like the question. I think it’s, I mean, partly you’re speaking about it, but I think the one thing I wanted to say, you did write it, but the one thing that I learned is like, it’s not personal. It’s actually not personal. And it comes back to the humanity, right? The best definition of humanity I’ve ever had of Renee Brown is that, humanity is about doing what’s right, and not being right. That’s actually humility. People think humility is this kind of self, nihilistic kind of, that’s actually, can you do what is right, and not necessarily for you to be right, right? So it’s never personal. But the Tricia’s point is like, this system, this organism, it’s got patterns all over the time. It’s got incentives everywhere. It’s got kind of short-term memories.
[13:30:25:10 – 13:30:27:05]
Speaker 6
It’s got its, and it’s got its own conscience.
[13:30:27:05 – 13:30:36:21]
Speaker 5
It’s actually an organism that’s playing. So you, once you reduce the ego, and you’re like, okay, this thing is not personal, okay? Then you’re like, okay, let me look for the patterns.
[13:30:37:23 – 13:31:34:09]
Speaker 5
What is the patterns then, and what is the guys? What is the, who’s the guy you need to speak to, whatever, right? And I think that’s important. So there’s a system, there’s a pattern, there’s the ideas, there’s incentives, and you have to move beyond the, hey, they’re attacking me too. The system is resisting. Can I understand how to deal with the system? I wanted to make another point, and it’s something that’s being, as I’m involved, as you think you’re winning the thing, I didn’t think you’re winning the change battle. You’ve been battle-hardened, I mean, I’m many years down now. The thing that struck me though is that after excellence, after working with relationships, after navigating, after making the change, now accepted and going, and once you have excellence, it no longer becomes about the change. Then it becomes about you, and then the game changes. Because then all of a sudden you’re like, what the hell happened now?
[13:31:35:10 – 13:31:46:12]
Speaker 5
This thing has changed, things are right, people are accepting it now. The problem is that the person, or they’re entered, and I like how you said it’s not about you. But then the person driving the change becomes the problem.
[13:31:48:00 – 13:32:19:21]
Speaker 5
And that’s how it gets derailed. So you see, this thing is like it’s got– Then it becomes personal. Then it’s personal. It’s not personal in the beginning, because all that doing the system is responding, and people think that is personal now. You understand the system, but once you’ve understood that, and you now and now, because remember, change is good, and even if change hits the bottom line, everybody’s happy, somebody’s activated this change. And now that person is the focus of the problem. Problem becomes the person, and then there’s another level of,
[13:32:20:21 – 13:32:40:05]
Speaker 5
how do you navigate that person? Because now it’s at a much higher level. And so my only point is that, like this thing is so multifaceted, that I think as a leader and as an executive, and I like the way Zuma wrote two boxes, it’s never static. You almost like this thing evolves, it takes on another,
[13:32:41:09 – 13:32:46:07]
Speaker 5
it takes on a life on its own, and at some point you have to recognize your–
[13:32:48:00 – 13:33:06:03]
Speaker 6
But this is interesting. So why do you think it’s like that? Is it because the leader that’s pushing for the change invests so much that it almost becomes a part of you, and suddenly when it’s done, you don’t know how to deal with the loss of this thing that you’ve been driving?
[13:33:06:03 – 13:33:10:16]
Speaker 5
Or is it like– I think it installs power to the person driving the change.
[13:33:10:16 – 13:33:14:12]
Speaker 6
So you get a little chop on your shoulder, because while I’m– And I have to go
[13:33:14:12 – 13:33:24:17]
Speaker 5
on the power, right? So it all becomes the politics again. So what happens is that you just create another, a different level of human engagements.
[13:33:24:17 – 13:33:26:09]
Speaker 3
All I’m saying is multilay.
[13:33:26:09 – 13:34:36:15]
Speaker 5
The only point is that if we think for one moment, there is a straight line. So there’s a way of doing change well, buying the book, understanding, having your whatever, even that is not enough. That’s all I’m trying to say there. This thing morphs, and so I think as a person that drives this, as a person that you must always ever be present that how is it morphing, and what’s my role in that, right? Because even if you humble, it doesn’t matter if you’ve garnered a lot of power through the process. Now you have to understand, what does change now look like? How does that play out? How do I make this thing love beyond me? And that’s what a lot of people then don’t do, right? One of the things that I’ve always believed is that the failure actually at the end is, if you don’t make the change love beyond you– Yes, because both of that– Then we have progress. But if change ends with you and you become the problem, that’s worse even for me, because then you’ve lost. And so actually my biggest lesson as I’ve come through my career is that, she’s never be the problem. And make the change love beyond you and that, unfortunately sometimes, as sacrifices.
[13:34:38:01 – 13:34:43:05]
Speaker 1
I was listening to an interview the other day between, I think it’s David Shapiro and,
[13:34:44:15 – 13:34:45:15]
Speaker 1
what’s his name from Buzz News?
[13:34:47:12 – 13:34:47:16]
Speaker 1
Anyway,
[13:34:49:02 – 13:35:25:00]
Speaker 1
very interesting, and at some point they used like, where are all the business titans? Yeah. Yes. Where’s all these big individuals that used to be, these are running these big companies. And I’m wondering out of this conversation, because business has changed from a CEO getting on the phone, finding a supplier saying, “I want this 10 cents down.” And he takes over the market the next month. So that was a big ego. Then the next period we saw was the tech. Well, the techies became the CEOs, right? And they’ve, by virtue more, introverted, quiet people. But those were the new CEOs, because it became this tech business.
[13:35:26:11 – 13:35:40:18]
Speaker 1
And what I’m hearing is that the people is really moving change and really growing businesses in the South African context. Aren’t really both, but you’re able to spot patterns.
[13:35:42:06 – 13:35:53:11]
Speaker 1
And that’s those goat bars that you spoke about. You’re not in the CEO sitting in his class thing anymore. It’s also not really the techy CEO anymore that Mark, what do you call them?
[13:35:53:11 – 13:35:54:17]
Speaker 4
The Zuckerberg.
[13:35:54:17 – 13:36:25:03]
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. They’re still there, but a more medium-sized, medium to enterprise-sized business. It’s not really those guys anymore. And think about Michael Yordon. He was this, when they, the FNB went through this massive thing. Those guys who understood tech well really moved it forward. But is it, are the titans gone because the titans are quiet? They are working. This stuff is moving. Even in this difficult economy, some businesses are moving forward, but you’re not seeing these people. They’re quiet in the background, really moving stuff forward, tech wise and people wise.
[13:36:27:06 – 13:36:33:05]
Speaker 4
I see a leadership layer now that’s very people-centric.
[13:36:35:21 – 13:36:56:19]
Speaker 4
I don’t know that I know exactly where the titans are gone. My gut says they are investing in a new set of leadership. It’s a fascinating young market that’s coming in now. So the guys that are joining the workplace are all tech savvy. So they’re all mobile friendly. They’re all doing chat GPT.
[13:36:59:20 – 13:37:05:00]
Speaker 4
The kind of leader that’s got to get the most out of this new workforce is very people-centric.
[13:37:06:02 – 13:37:12:16]
Speaker 4
While we’ve seen these people are more fickle as well, they’re very happy to get some experience, move their career, get some other experience.
[13:37:13:16 – 13:37:14:05]
Speaker 1
Remember fickle.
[13:37:15:13 – 13:37:17:14]
Speaker 1
Remember fickle. Sorry, continue, yeah.
[13:37:18:23 – 13:38:33:18]
Speaker 4
So what I’m seeing as being really successful in the workplace are people that can connect at a human level. I think tech’s become this given, right? So it’s a really interesting balance as to, with our tech, the organization feels slow and feels a little bit Democrat is the right word and things are disconnected. But tech feels like it’s a given now. Even training, we talk about like, I’m digressing significantly, but training, we don’t even think about that much in the workplace. People must be interested, if it’s not obvious what I need to do, well then frankly what you both must go back and redo that, right? So the way people are engaging with their jobs now really is do I have meaning? Do I connect with the place? So it feels like there’s a different genre of leaders that are in. I think those big titans are still there, possibly sparking the business ideas and investing in the money, but the ones that we’re seeing on the stage are different. That’s my very two cents worth, but I would need to actually go and do some proper homework, yeah.
[13:38:33:18 – 13:38:45:15]
Speaker 5
Yeah. My unintelligent view is that we’re actually in this transition, which is like, there’s a lot of tech, we’re not bowling a lot, we’re not producing or creating or anything.
[13:38:45:15 – 13:38:46:08]
Speaker 3
Yeah.
[13:38:46:08 – 13:39:01:10]
Speaker 5
I think in this transition, I think that we have many years of bowling stuff and I think people are watching on the sidelines, I think so, I think there’s, we almost like in this transition, where a lot of the leaders now are holding down existing stuff.
[13:39:01:10 – 13:39:03:23]
Speaker 1
But what’s gonna be the, what’s gonna be the spark?
[13:39:03:23 – 13:39:07:00]
Speaker 5
Yeah. I was speaking earlier, I’d like to be in a shift here.
[13:39:07:00 – 13:39:07:10]
Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah.
[13:39:07:10 – 13:39:41:07]
Speaker 5
There’s an opportunity here that I think we all recognize, understand metrics are where they’ve never been before, right? Look where the rent is, look where the gold price is, but if you just look what people are doing around the world, I spoke about the France example, I feel like they’re just saying, from next year sometime, no more teams, right? Like, we get into this phase where people are actually going to take the initiative and I think in SA that’s where we find ourselves, right? I think we’re gonna get my view personally, I have the sense that we’re gonna get a whole bunch of new leaders in the space.
[13:39:41:07 – 13:40:09:08]
Speaker 1
And I think if there’s anything we can talk about, is that the people in the workforce now are the future leaders. What are these people? I mean, you consult with them every day. Why are we working so hard to get them to buy into our stuff? You know, so, because that’s really difficult. I mean, you asked me yesterday, do you have a change manager? Like 10 years ago, what change manager? I always used to joke and say, if you can’t do change management, change management.
[13:40:09:08 – 13:40:09:19]
Speaker 7
Yeah.
[13:40:09:19 – 13:40:20:20]
Speaker 1
Now you need to really like massage the stuff really slowly and that’s got its own overhead and cost. Why do we need to do that? Why are people so fickle? Your word.
[13:40:22:22 – 13:40:27:21]
Speaker 6
I don’t know, but I do know that the young people coming in,
[13:40:29:12 – 13:40:43:18]
Speaker 6
some things I find interesting about young adults I work with, going into the workforce is the awareness of their mental health and the need they have for companies to acknowledge that.
[13:40:45:19 – 13:40:57:05]
Speaker 6
A dynamic, I don’t know, as a millennial, I guess myself, I don’t really understand with how they relate to work. You spend hours and hours at work. It’s an important part of your life.
[13:40:58:21 – 13:41:08:01]
Speaker 6
But I don’t know if by fickle you mean they’re almost like sensitive to how toxic is my work environment? Does anyone actually care about me?
[13:41:10:13 – 13:41:16:00]
Speaker 1
Was it always that way? Is that a, don’t you think it’s just a human nature? Do you think it’s just more audible now at the moment?
[13:41:16:00 – 13:41:18:22]
Speaker 6
Let me give you a perspective. Yeah, maybe everyone just has language now.
[13:41:18:22 – 13:41:41:00]
Speaker 4
I’m seeing time as the scarce commodity. So if I reflect on why change manager, we’re too busy. We’re too busy. So I think, and it talks to the price tag of tech. So if we go right back to the beginning, you made a big investment in this process that we want to change.
[13:41:42:13 – 13:41:55:12]
Speaker 4
We know we’ve cut time out of our time out. There’s no doubt about it. You and I both know we’re up against this thing. So time is the scarce resource. And the generation that we’re changing now wants to know what’s in it for me.
[13:41:56:18 – 13:43:08:11]
Speaker 4
I feel like we had the luxury of time on previous implementations, if it’s in my early career, right? Because nothing said project is gonna take 18 months. That’s just not what 18 months. If you called less than 18 months, somebody said you made a mistake. It’s 18 months, right? We’re talking about six months, four months for some of the work that we’re wanting to do now. So we’ve really, really slimmed that down. And in the career lifestyle, we want to be bold and we want to take risks. So it’s completely within our culture and we’re happy and we’re gonna give it a go. The people that we’re working with now are dealing in instant gratification. We all know that in everybody’s house, we don’t even watch the same channel anymore. You’re gonna watch Netflix, you’re gonna watch a podcast. Everybody chooses to suit themselves. So I think that the generation we’re training says what’s in it for me. Now we need a human to come and go, you know what, Karim? This is what changes me. You know you used to do this? Because now you don’t want to read this on an email because you’re gonna go, sorry, that’s disrespectful to me. I’m a human, come and talk to me as a human. So now, funny enough, I think time and this human commodity, I know Simon Sinek’s got some work on it recently to say,
[13:43:09:20 – 13:43:36:01]
Speaker 4
as an airline, the platinum status actually gets you a human again. Everybody else, when you’re phoning the contact center, it’s a normal asset lease and you must go in, you know. And actually the humans are coming in as the VIP support service. So I think it’s gonna be this time and human connection where that’s what’s gonna be valuable. So that’s just, it’s only kind of come through now, but I think that’s what I’m seeing.
[13:43:36:01 – 13:43:42:15]
Speaker 6
But why do you tell people if they ask you what is in it for them? What can you offer apart from money?
[13:43:42:15 – 13:43:43:11]
Speaker 4
Listen, we’ve actually got so much.
[13:43:43:11 – 13:43:45:01]
Speaker 6
Here’s a salary for you or?
[13:43:45:01 – 13:43:57:06]
Speaker 4
Listen, all of these implementations, right? Lachlan is the first guy to say to me, just like make sure that we are making it easier for the human on the other end. So I can tell you it’s going to be phenomenally easier.
[13:43:57:06 – 13:44:00:21]
Speaker 6
But that’s for the customer, right? No, even for the call center. Or even for your employee.
[13:44:00:21 – 13:44:09:13]
Speaker 4
For the guy in the call center, we’ve removed a whole lot of used up to click, yeah, then you have to go over there, then you have to do this. So like the new process is super easy,
[13:44:10:20 – 13:44:36:15]
Speaker 4
but he wants to be told that. He doesn’t wanna just read that. He doesn’t wanna just see that on day one. He wants to be engaged as a human. That says, you know, Mary, on the 30th of March, this is what we’re gonna do. This is what it’s gonna look like. You know you used to do that thing. You know you used to click these five things. It’s now these things. And then to refund was right in the beginning. They don’t even ask Mary what she wants it by the way. Because Mary, you know what, you know, we’ve got this thing coming.
[13:44:37:18 – 13:44:52:02]
Speaker 4
What do you actually want? Mary’s gonna go, you know what’s a real frustration for me? And that’s where choosing the partner that you use for a technology is so, so, so important. Because now it comes back to right where we started to say, did we even ask Mary?
[13:44:53:04 – 13:44:53:09]
Speaker 6
Okay.
[13:44:53:09 – 13:45:00:14]
Speaker 4
You know, and I think that’s the process for me. That’s where you can learn to lose it.
[13:45:00:14 – 13:45:04:04]
Speaker 6
So is Mary heard? And does Mary feel safe?
[13:45:04:04 – 13:45:08:11]
Speaker 4
Yes. And she wants to be human heard. Mary doesn’t want to go on a survey.
[13:45:10:23 – 13:45:16:19]
Speaker 4
Survey response rate, so like two percent. Nobody can be, you know. Is she heard?
[13:45:16:19 – 13:45:24:06]
Speaker 5
Yeah. I wanted to take a different view on the vehicle, but I think if I take a positive view of how to use that,
[13:45:26:01 – 13:45:29:07]
Speaker 5
kids and the generation are just questioning.
[13:45:30:08 – 13:45:31:08]
Speaker 5
And damn, they should be.
[13:45:32:10 – 13:45:40:23]
Speaker 5
Does the school system even make sense? My son brought me this slip to sign and he says, me and my son went through the code of conduct.
[13:45:40:23 – 13:45:41:21]
(Laughing)
[13:45:41:21 – 13:45:52:15]
Speaker 5
We had an idea to it. And I say, where’s the code of conduct? So it brings it to me, I read this thing. I’m saying, okay. I say, what do you think about it? He says, I don’t know if I want to sign.
[13:45:54:04 – 13:45:54:05]
(Laughing)
[13:45:54:05 – 13:47:23:02]
Speaker 5
No, I’ve got to sign. He’s seven years old, right? So I’m like, why not? And he’s like, he’s rambling, rambling, rambling, because actually, they don’t really know what’s bothering them. But they know they’re not happy, they’re not happy. So he says, you know, actually the real problem is that they say they want you to have fun. But when I read this thing, there’s nothing about having fun. You know what I mean? And I read it again with these lens, right? I was like, oh, this guy’s right. I read it and it’s like, everything is punitive. We come from a mindset where you told us what to do for our generation, you just do it is punitive. You will do this, this, this, or else. Or you’re fired. Or else, you’re fired, whatever. And they’re like, whoa. You tell me I must come to school. First of all, I’m choosing whether I go to school. And now you want me to sign this thing and he can’t see anything that you would find and how he’s gonna enjoy this experience. And he still hasn’t signed yet, right? And so I’m saying it’s the same thing, right? The questioning the school, the questioning work, that’s going to work, going to physical places is gone now, right? You can’t get a tech guy that you get full time in the office anymore. I mean, maybe Logna can get them, but they don’t exist. Like the questioning and so they should, right? And so let me take a fairly utopian view. When you take AI tools, utopian view, the inside side is like, one of the utopian views is like, okay, to be the end of scarcity, right? To be abundance, everybody, you can see everybody’s basic needs and give everybody a basic income and people can perceive what they want to write. I think a lot of those generations are already there.
[13:47:23:02 – 13:47:24:23]
Speaker 3
That is what they would like.
[13:47:24:23 – 13:47:30:08]
Speaker 5
Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. If AI can do all of these things, then why must
[13:47:30:08 – 13:47:33:20]
Speaker 6
I get up at seven and drive through the traffic and
[13:47:33:20 – 13:47:47:09]
Speaker 5
work out, why must I do this? If I want to know something, no one else will say, oh yeah, it tells me. So all I’m saying is that Fickel is also another way for me that says, hey, they’re actually questioning the status quo in a way that we never did.
[13:47:48:14 – 13:47:52:21]
Speaker 5
And for my money, that’s very good. It’s just us old people don’t know how to deal with it.
[13:47:54:01 – 13:48:01:14]
Speaker 5
And I have to say, okay, Guy, let’s speak through your code of conduct and I have to say, because he needs to sign my Friday, right? So I mean, I’m just saying.
[13:48:01:14 – 13:48:02:11]
Speaker 8
Yeah, absolutely.
[13:48:02:11 – 13:48:09:22]
Speaker 4
But I think it is that it is gonna circle back to are we seeing people for who they are? And are we truly listening to people?
[13:48:11:00 – 13:48:36:07]
Speaker 1
Because I think that’s what companies should be selling internally. And the change management of the process and say, listen, we don’t really have to do this. We can continue on spreadsheet. But we want to try and make life more available for you because life is generally unbearable for most people. And I think that’s another point to maybe focus on, which is also a South African thing. And then Liz, you need to give me an idea of time.
[13:48:36:07 – 13:48:40:05]
Speaker 2
You’ve got to do something for 30 minutes, Dave.
[13:48:40:05 – 13:48:52:16]
Speaker 1
Okay, so there’s one big thing in the first principles that I always like to focus on is I changed my wording from mental health to mental fitness.
[13:48:53:17 – 13:48:57:21]
Speaker 1
Because in the workspace, what I see when you speak to customers or people that you work on on projects,
[13:48:59:09 – 13:49:01:19]
Speaker 1
mental health is something that you either have or you don’t.
[13:49:02:22 – 13:49:12:02]
Speaker 1
Because if you say I’m either mentally healthy or I’m not. And if I identify with I’m not mentally healthy, and I’m really in a difficult space and I’m treading water.
[13:49:13:08 – 13:49:41:04]
Speaker 1
You guys obviously do some stuff, right? Because you’ve gotten to this point in your career, you’ve not just previously, but you’re currently doing exciting stuff. What do you do for your mental fitness? To be the example, to be the energy, to fight the right fight, to negotiate the right points, to see the patterns, to be just present enough in a day to actually see the pattern because that’s not easy. It’s difficult.
[13:49:41:04 – 13:49:56:03]
Speaker 5
One of my biggest hacks in life is that I love running and I love listening to books. And I can do them together. And I listen usually on two, two an hour speed. So it’s a little bit of a break.
[13:49:56:03 – 13:49:57:13]
(Laughing)
[13:49:57:13 – 13:49:59:22]
Speaker 1
Then you run it for three, four minutes a kilometer.
[13:49:59:22 – 13:51:17:20]
Speaker 5
No, but I think about it like I’m doing, I’m doing an hour of running and I’ve listened to two and a half hours of books. I can get through multiple books. It’s the biggest hack that I’ve ever. And I think for me as a leader, and it’s the point where it’s like, everything is evolving all the time. Your perspective, things around you. And if it’s a leader, you’re not evolving. I think mental wellness and I like that and mental is about how you’re constantly understanding yourself, like that. And that which is around you. And I think that’s important. Because both are moving. And I mean, two of my kids are on the spectrum that I found over the last few years. And the most important thing you understand as I’m parenting them now is that there’s two elements. The one is how do you regulate the environment for them? But also importantly, how do you make or allow them to regulate themselves? And you need to know what to use when. And I think it’s no different to us as adults, as executives or whatever. And I always maintain that. You need to understand, why do I need to regulate in my environment? And how do I navigate that? And how do I regulate myself? I mean, this mass meeting and the things, those kind of like that’s the moment.
[13:51:17:20 – 13:51:24:10]
Speaker 1
I just wanna dive into that step lower. Why do you think you’ve got the right to regulate?
[13:51:25:11 – 13:51:46:19]
Speaker 1
Why? Yourself. Yes. Why do you think you’ve got the influence on this world around you? Because I think a lot of people feel powerless. They feel like they’re just being blown. My boss said this, my wife said this. What step down? I mean, it sounds like you feel like you’re empowered to regulate yourself and your environment.
[13:51:48:09 – 13:51:49:12]
Speaker 1
At which point did you get there?
[13:51:50:15 – 13:51:52:04]
Speaker 5
A lot of sessions.
[13:51:52:04 – 13:51:53:08]
(Laughing)
[13:51:53:08 – 13:51:54:19]
Speaker 6
Great plan, great plan.
[13:51:54:19 – 13:51:56:00]
Speaker 1
We’ll put in your hand.
[13:51:57:00 – 13:51:58:21]
Speaker 1
We’ll put in our hand in the notes.
[13:51:58:21 – 13:52:02:13]
Speaker 5
I think you get to a point, I’ve been through that way like,
[13:52:03:14 – 13:53:01:17]
Speaker 5
if you don’t regulate, you go to a very particular point which is unsustainable. We’ve all been there, I think. I think it’s the other way around. How can you not regulate yourself for your own good? I always tell people, everybody should be in therapy. Our love is so complex, so much things. I don’t know, for me it’s been like, if you don’t regulate yourself, everybody else is gonna do that for you. Why would you wanna, why would you give away your power or somebody else? What about you, you think about, I think it’s more the opposite. Why would you wanna give my well-being and my state of mind away to somebody else? That is ridiculous, I can’t even think why I would do that. And then secondly, why would I be in environments that doesn’t serve me? I’m gonna pick on you and I’ve learned this from you initially and you’ve repeated it again now. You sit across a customer and at some point you walk away like, because you know, man, you’re saying, if I’m not gonna regulate my environment, this thing doesn’t matter how well I regulate myself.
[13:53:01:17 – 13:53:02:04]
Speaker 3
Yes.
[13:53:02:04 – 13:53:03:03]
Speaker 5
This thing’s gonna kill me.
[13:53:03:03 – 13:53:03:14]
Speaker 3
Yes.
[13:53:03:14 – 13:53:07:20]
Speaker 5
So I think if you don’t do that balance as a leader, you did, and you have to.
[13:53:07:20 – 13:53:08:04]
Speaker 3
Yeah.
[13:53:08:04 – 13:53:28:14]
Speaker 5
It’s like, if you don’t, then somebody else is in control. That customer is in control, that boss is in control. Yeah. And I don’t know, as a human, once you let that go, then there’s no value, right? And so, though I’ve always known it intuitively through my kids and understanding the spectrum, it’s like, once you get that perspective,
[13:53:29:14 – 13:53:34:23]
Speaker 5
all the of them regulate the environment and all the of them regulate themselves. I think it’s so liberating.
[13:53:34:23 – 13:54:05:16]
Speaker 6
Yeah. I think something that’s important for us to just label is the ability to regulate is a skill. Yes. Yes. It’s something you have to learn how to do. It’s not just some people are magically able to do it and others are not. It’s something whether you learn any therapy or if it was modelled to you by maybe a parent or whatever, but it’s a skill. And the second thing I’m hearing you say is it brings us back right to the beginning, like slowing down,
[13:54:06:16 – 13:54:12:13]
Speaker 6
having patience, not being so performance driven that it has to happen now and it has to happen quick.
[13:54:12:13 – 13:54:14:06]
Speaker 5
Not taking it personally.
[13:54:14:06 – 13:54:18:05]
Speaker 6
Not taking it personally. You should totally limit yourself if everything’s personal. Yes, true.
[13:54:18:05 – 13:54:55:03]
Speaker 4
But I’m gonna guarantee that we’ve all made those mistakes. Absolutely. So it’s always easy to sit back in the back nine of our career. It’s our word yesterday. And I think we all made these mistakes, right? So I can tell you I went through phases where I didn’t know how to self-regulate and I didn’t have the skills on my own mental health. And so I mean, I can tell you now the things that I did, but I don’t, some of it I think is maybe just cycle of life. I mean, I’m gonna have to know from you, do you see young kids,
[13:54:56:11 – 13:55:17:21]
Speaker 4
look, I can see it coming through schools now. I think there’s a lot more in schools now than there was, certainly when I went to school, it was a very science, geography, history kind of curriculum. I think it’s changing now. And I think that’s why we think it’s pushed back. You know, that wasn’t a skill that you saw coming through school. So I think you’re seeing some of that. I often ask myself,
[13:55:19:05 – 13:55:23:19]
Speaker 4
do you have to learn the hard lesson? In order to figure out how to self-regulate.
[13:55:25:22 – 13:55:28:04]
Speaker 4
I don’t know, it’s a really interesting one.
[13:55:28:04 – 13:55:41:08]
Speaker 6
It’s another tension, I think, because on the one end, you will automatically learn things if you’re wounded or you go through difficult stages. And going through the wilderness is not a bad thing, right?
[13:55:41:08 – 13:55:41:14]
Speaker 8
Yeah.
[13:55:41:14 – 13:55:50:02]
Speaker 6
But some people can go through the wilderness and they only get traumatized by it. They don’t necessarily learn a lot. On the other side, it’s also about being like,
[13:55:51:23 – 13:56:21:16]
Speaker 6
almost like going ahead of yourself, prepping. That’s what I enjoy about the youth. It’s not just in schools, but they use social media and the videos that they watch, they have language, they learn how to do things before they are even in trouble. And I think if you can have both those, if you can equip yourself ahead of time and you can use those skills when you’re in the wilderness, then you learn, then you get that beautiful integration which ends in wisdom, right?
[13:56:21:16 – 13:56:34:10]
Speaker 5
So it’s a pendulum, right? As you know, as well. So we shift to the one side and then we shift to the outside. I think in our own place, we have a pendulum that shifted a lot more people. I’m powered to your point, question, actually.
[13:56:34:10 – 13:56:36:21]
Speaker 4
And I think actually just to talk about it.
[13:56:36:21 – 13:56:51:09]
Speaker 5
Yeah. I don’t think, what do you mean? I have the right to choose, and I go right there, and that’s another one. Yes. And also, I think we shift the pendulum. I must strongly believe in everything, so there’s much more fact. It’s always somewhere in the middle.
[13:56:51:09 – 13:56:55:08]
Speaker 1
So I’ve got two questions from two B listeners,
[13:56:56:17 – 13:56:59:10]
Speaker 1
but it is good two questions. The one is for you,
[13:57:03:12 – 13:57:03:17]
Speaker 1
Trej.
[13:57:03:17 – 13:57:10:20]
Speaker 2
Pause. It’s a good point to just remind you. After these two questions, we must land the plane.
[13:57:10:20 – 13:57:11:02]
Speaker 3
Okay.
[13:57:11:02 – 13:57:18:01]
Speaker 2
So you can just start again with, I’ve got two questions. The first one’s for you, Trej.
[13:57:18:01 – 13:57:20:01]
Speaker 4
Before you go to a quick one, is it?
[13:57:20:01 – 13:57:23:09]
(Laughing)
[13:57:26:17 – 13:57:39:03]
Speaker 1
Yeah, so I’ve got two questions. Your question is, for the listener who’s been burned before, Yeah. We tried to lead change, and got politically out of the new bit, or blamed when it didn’t show fast results.
[13:57:39:03 – 13:57:39:18]
Speaker 7
Yeah.
[13:57:39:18 – 13:57:42:03]
Speaker 1
What would you say to them about trying again?
[13:57:42:03 – 13:57:43:00]
Speaker 4
Okay.
[13:57:44:06 – 13:57:45:04]
Speaker 4
And another question?
[13:57:45:04 – 13:57:48:20]
Speaker 1
You, red one,
[13:57:49:23 – 13:57:55:02]
Speaker 1
when you started, what did you believe about business and transformation that you now realize was naive?
[13:57:56:13 – 13:57:58:02]
Speaker 1
Not wrong necessarily, but incomplete.
[13:58:00:04 – 13:58:02:23]
Speaker 2
Okay, cool. So you’re gonna lead in with that.
[13:58:04:01 – 13:58:09:10]
Speaker 2
I’ve got two questions from our listeners. Yeah. And they can take them in.
[13:58:09:10 – 13:58:11:20]
Speaker 1
All right, I’ve got two questions from our listeners.
[13:58:13:17 – 13:58:16:18]
Speaker 1
Trej, can I ask you the first one? So,
[13:58:18:00 – 13:58:28:16]
Speaker 1
for the listener who’s been burned before, we tried to lead change, and got politically outmaneuvered or blamed when it didn’t show results fast enough. What would you say to them about trying again?
[13:58:31:07 – 13:58:47:20]
Speaker 4
Listen, so we’ve been, I’ve been there definitely. The thing I want to say about being burned is you’ve learned, and you’ve been burned, right? So sometimes, it’s almost like, well, what’s the worst that can happen? The same thing. So hopefully you learned from that first one.
[13:58:49:05 – 13:59:42:14]
Speaker 4
The second thing I want to say is, I want to think if you feel like you got burned, you were trying to do it alone. It is my own self-reflection. You took too much on. You shouldn’t actually ever get to the point where results come down to one person, not in a big deployment, not in a big project. And if you did, your ego, I suspect, like mine, I thought I was going to be the hero, and I thought I was, thought I knew everything, and then didn’t work out, because I didn’t involve the right people, certainly in my own learning. I should have spread my neck wider. I should have listened more in the beginning. I should have gone, I always believed you were slow in the beginning, then it allows you to go faster towards the end. If you come out of the gate, and you think you know the answer, and you’re going to find out at the finish line, you might have missed a few things. So Lachna, I think my advice here is, go slow in the beginning,
[13:59:44:05 – 14:00:06:04]
Speaker 4
build much stronger relations with the other people in the team, and make sure you don’t feel alone. If you’re feeling alone, you haven’t cast your neck wide enough. It’s either to build, in the case that I’m with you, how to build that partner relationship, how to bring my Xcode team on their journey with me. If you’re feeling alone, that’s the same.
[14:00:06:04 – 14:00:08:09]
Speaker 1
When things go wrong, you will bed burned.
[14:00:08:09 – 14:00:29:20]
Speaker 4
But if you’ve been burned, damn it, go again, right? But also, my last thing is, you’ve got to love this. So I know for me, I get out of bed, being able to provide charity for the business. Then when things go wrong, I can go that diagnosed conversation I had earlier. You’ve also got to know, is this what you love doing?
[14:00:31:00 – 14:00:32:07]
Speaker 4
If you got burned and you go,
[14:00:33:22 – 14:01:22:15]
Speaker 4
I’ve learned that that wasn’t me, don’t try and force it again, because it’s not for everybody. You’ve really got to be comfortable with being a servant leader. I know somewhere was a thought around, why did I give up in my career for the job that I have now? As a transformation leader, you very often are a servant leader. So by that, I mean, I don’t run ops. I don’t run the contact center. My role is to make them look like heroes. If I want to be the hero, I need to go and be the ops guy, or I need to lead customer services. I need to accept that my role is to make others successful. If I want to be that guy on the stage, then this probably isn’t the job for you. So some of this is why I say, are you really truly prepared to be a servant leader and do this in service of others?
[14:01:24:01 – 14:01:24:18]
Speaker 4
Then the effort.
[14:01:24:18 – 14:01:26:10]
Speaker 1
I like it. I like it.
[14:01:27:10 – 14:01:28:03]
Speaker 1
Thank you.
[14:01:30:06 – 14:01:34:23]
Speaker 1
Okay, Edwan, last question to you. When you started all those years ago,
[14:01:36:04 – 14:01:48:13]
Speaker 1
this ambition you’ve had about the patient journey, what did you believe about business and transformation that you now realize is naive? Not wrong necessarily, but incomplete.
[14:01:50:07 – 14:02:49:00]
Speaker 5
You touched on it earlier, but I’m wondering, is that definitely initially I thought you just had to be the cleverest oak and have the evidence and do what’s right. I think there were times in my career I was like, what do you think this thing is? Obviously the right thing. Obviously everybody should be wise, everybody not understanding it. I think all of us get to that first realization, we’re like, ah, it’s not enough. Being cleve is not enough, being excellent is not enough, being far is not enough. And it’s to the point is that it’s all the other things. It’s the incentives, it’s the emotions, it’s what you do to people. So I think as you evolve, and I suspect it’s for the person gets burnt as well, you learn it. If you haven’t been burnt, that means you probably haven’t been ambitious enough or haven’t been optimistic enough. And so you go on again and so I think there were many projects where I was like, what do you mean? You know what I mean? And then you learn and you’re like, okay, it’s not about the nail.
[14:02:49:00 – 14:02:51:04]
Speaker 3
Yeah, awesome, hello.
[14:02:51:04 – 14:03:10:02]
Speaker 5
It’s not about the nail. And once you understand that, I think actually the naivete, the evaporates, and you’re like, okay, I must do good. But actually there’s a whole process to manage here that is not just about the content. That’s been the biggest. Once you do that, I think your eyes are going like, okay, actually there’s a lot of work.
[14:03:10:02 – 14:03:10:17]
Speaker 8
Yeah.
[14:03:10:17 – 14:03:30:16]
Speaker 1
And I think that’s the maybe a thing to land us on is to get to that first principle, to get to the truth is a lot of work. It’s digging for gold. You need to go through a lot of crap to get to that golden vein. And I think maybe this is a encouraging word for the people out there who’s considering
[14:03:32:23 – 14:03:36:10]
Speaker 1
possibly being burned, that you don’t have to get burned,
[14:03:37:21 – 14:04:05:01]
Speaker 1
but it takes a lot of work. You have to dig through all the crap to get to the gold in its ongoing process. I wanna thank you, Trish. I wanna thank you, Ridwan. I know all of you are busy, super busy people, that parcels are moving and so are we. Karina, I know there’s people out there who’s actually in need of your time right now and I really appreciate that you joined. All the best with your endeavor. I’d love to see what you’re gonna do, Trish.
[14:04:06:05 – 14:04:13:11]
Speaker 1
Also, same with you, lots to do. Karina, thank you. Appreciate it. It’s been fun. It was like, that’s how our process.
[14:04:13:11 – 14:04:14:14]
Speaker 7
Like that.
[14:04:14:14 – 14:04:15:01]
Speaker 1
Thanks.
[14:04:15:01 – 14:04:16:00]
Speaker 3
Thank you, Lachna.
[14:04:16:00 – 14:04:16:15]
Speaker 1
Thanks, Liz.
[14:04:16:15 – 14:04:20:07]
Speaker 2
Yeah, just keep talking guys, we’ll cut out as you go.
[14:04:20:07 – 14:04:21:05]
Speaker 1
Okay. Oh, that’s–
[14:04:21:05 – 14:04:22:07]
(Laughing)
[14:04:24:12 – 14:04:30:01]
Speaker 1
I just wanna quickly know, if you walk out of here, what’s the first thing you scream at you? Trish?
[14:04:32:03 – 14:04:33:23]
Speaker 4
I think this is a really– Is it kids?
[14:04:33:23 – 14:04:36:12]
Speaker 1
Is it kids? Is it work? Is it what it needs?
[14:04:36:12 – 14:04:37:09]
Speaker 4
No, it’s not kids today, yeah.
[14:04:38:23 – 14:04:46:15]
Speaker 4
No, Lachna, I actually think this is gonna be super powerful, right? Because often as a leader, it does feel like alone you’re doing. And I think creating this community,
[14:04:48:09 – 14:04:58:18]
Speaker 4
yeah, and I would love to see in front of a lab audience one day, right? So, no pressure. But take some live questions and allow people up to– Real questions. Real, not that these weren’t real.
[14:04:58:18 – 14:04:59:08]
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah.
[14:04:59:08 – 14:05:05:09]
Speaker 4
But live questions to say to people, come in such a, come and actually, let’s just have a bloke conversation.
[14:05:05:09 – 14:05:10:01]
Speaker 1
Yeah. Those are the foundations that we need now. And you, when you walk out of here.
[14:05:10:01 – 14:05:11:09]
Speaker 5
About this?
[14:05:11:09 – 14:05:12:05]
Speaker 1
Yeah, well, anything.
[14:05:12:05 – 14:05:21:23]
Speaker 5
Yeah, I mean, I think what strikes me is like, you don’t realize how multi-layered it is unless you start talking and speaking through that. I’m a very, I guess,
[14:05:23:00 – 14:05:32:12]
Speaker 5
I don’t think in much detail, but I feel in detail. So, as I speak, I was like, oh shit, actually. I can’t even feel like I’m playing for the pause.
[14:05:33:15 – 14:05:33:16]
(Laughing)
[14:05:33:16 – 14:05:34:21]
Speaker 8
I can see like what happened.
[14:05:34:21 – 14:05:39:22]
Speaker 5
You can see that you can actually, I feel that. So I think like, what’s lovely is like these layers.